So the question on everyone’s mind—and by that I mean, the question that has been on my mind—is just what it means to be ta’veren in Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time. Though the first three books in the series are no doubt just a drop in the bucket compared to the complex development that is to come, these three novels have laid out for us a basic understanding of what the Wheel of Time is, what the Pattern is, and the role of ta’veren within the Pattern. As Rand, Perrin, and Mat are slowly learning what it means to be ta’veren, we the readers are confronting many of the same questions. So even though I imagine I’ll need to revisit this question in a few more books-worth of time, it still seemed a good moment to sit down and ask, just what is a ta’veren, anwyay?
The concept of ta’veren is first introduced to Rand, and to the readers, by Loial, when they meet at The Queen’s Blessing in Chapter 36 of The Eye of the World. Despite the fact that he has been hiding his story from everyone, Rand finds himself telling the affable Ogier everything that has happened, from the Trolloc attack on Emond’s Field right up through Thom’s “death” at the hands of the Myrddraal and Rand and Mat’s flight to Caemlyn, beset by Darkfriends on every side. Loial’s answer, after hearing the tale, is to bring up ta’veren. He asks Rand if he knows how the Pattern is woven, but Rand has never really thought about it before, so the Ogier explains.
“…You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won’t accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?”
Rand nodded. “I could live on the farm or in Emond’s Field, and that would be a small change. If I wanted to be a king, though…” He laughed, and Loial gave a grin that almost split his face in two. His teeth were white, and as broad as chisels.
“Yes, that’s it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta’veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web—ta’maral’ailen, it’s called—can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta’veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose.”
One thing that I definitely missed in Loial’s explanation—or more likely, forgot—is the suggestion that one is not necessarily ta’veren for one’s whole life. It is difficult to say whether Rand was ta’veren when he was born, or if it came upon him at a later time, though as the Dragon he was of course always destined to be ta’veren, sooner or later. It’s also interesting to note that, as much as the idea of a Wheel spinning people’s lives like threads feels fantastical, the everyday workings of it are both logical and simple. Of course big changes are harder than small ones; whether you view that as a logical consequence of the physical world or as the direct intervention of the Pattern of Creation, the results are the same.
However, the idea of having certain people and certain lives designated to effect change on others is a more complicated concept. Even the educated characters like Loial and Moiraine aren’t entirely sure how how they work, or how the affects should be interpreted.
In Chapter 42, after the boys confess to Moiraine about their Ba’alzamon dreams, Loial realizes that it is not just Rand but all three boys who are ta’veren. Moiraine accepts the designation easily, having clearly already realized although she hasn’t yet said the words. She also explains how there are two basic ways to be ta’veren.
“For a time the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less. Sometimes being ta’veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.”
As far as Rand is concerned, it so far seems like he is more forced to the needed path than he is forcing the Pattern to bend to him, despite the ways in which we do see him affect it, such as in Jarra and the other cities where he causes spontaneous weddings, fires, droughts, and Whitecloaks abandoning their oaths. Although these effects are clearly a result of lives bending to accommodate the ripple from Rand’s, to me they feel more like collateral than anything, as Rand is obsessively bent to seek out Callandor, driven on by a passion that seems largely outside of himself, even though he has his own reasons to want to reclaim the not-sword from the Stone.
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As the Dragon Reborn, it’s obvious that Rand should be ta’veren, as Lews Therin was before him, and no doubt all the Dragons were. After all, the Dragon is meant to stand as opponent to the Dark One—ta’veren are tools of the Pattern, and the Dragon is the ultimate tool.
“A tool made for a purpose is not demeaned by being used for that purpose.”
—Moiraine to Rand, Chapter 53, TEOtW
Rand’s strength as a ta’veren takes Moiraine somewhat by surprise. After spending twenty years scheming with Siuan Sanche, the only other person who knows about Gitara Moroso’s foretelling of the Dragon’s birth, Moiraine has no doubt grown used to having a great deal of control over events, and more knowledge of them than anyone else around her. But now that she has found Rand, her life is being directed by his, rather than the other way around. From the detour to the Eye of the World to Rand’s choice to seek out Callandor long before Moiraine thinks he is ready, events are spinning out in ways Moiraine could not have predicted, because of the influence and plots of the Shadow and because of Rand’s ta’veren nature allowing the Wheel to drive him.
For example, in Chapter 5 of The Great Hunt, the Amyrlin upbraids Moiraine for diverting from their plan to find the Dragon Reborn and bring him back to Tar Valon to be hidden. Moiraine explains:
“The Pattern pays no heed to human plans, Siuan. With all our scheming, we forgot what we were dealing with. Ta’veren. Elaida is wrong. Artur Paendrag Tanreall was never this strongly ta’veren. The Wheel will weave the Pattern around this young man as it wills, whatever our plans.”
The anger left Amyrlin’s face, replaced by white-faced shock. “It sounds as if you are saying we might as well give up. Do you now suggest standing aside and watching the world burn?”
“No, Siuan. Never standing aside.” Yet the world will burn, Siuan, one way or another, whatever we do. You could never see that. “But we must now realize that our plans are precarious things. We have even less control than we thought. Perhaps only a fingernail’s grip. The winds of destiny are blowing, Siuan, and we must ride them where they take us.”
It’s interesting to note here that even those with the most knowledge, Siuan and Moiraine, don’t agree on how much change they can actually affect, where the Dragon is concerned. But the question is not just how much change can be affected, how much of the future they can direct, but also what the best course is. After all, most other Aes Sedai believe that, as a male channeler and one prophesied to Break the world again, the Dragon should be gentled as soon as he is found, and that appears to be a real danger to Rand, as Egwene sees in her third trip through the ter’angreal during her trials to become Accepted. Moiraine is fully aware that, ta’veren or not, there are many ways in which Rand could be thwarted in reaching his destiny. His power to shape the Pattern does not mean that one outcome is in any way assured.
And indeed, Moiraine sometimes actively tries to use the ta’veren abilities of the boys, such as when she brings them all to the Eye of the World, suggesting that placing “three centerpoints of the Web” where the danger is may have an effect on how the Pattern is woven. She indicates a similar intention in Illian, when she leaves Lan behind with the boys after the Gray Man attack in Chapter 42 of The Dragon Reborn. She tells him that if she dies, he should take Perrin with him back to the White Tower.
“…It seems the Shadow has made his importance in the Pattern known to me, if not clear. I was a fool. Rand is so strongly ta’veren that I ignored what it must mean that he had two others close by him. With Perrin and Mat, the Amyrlin may still be able to affect the course of events. With Rand loose, she will have to.”
Just as the future is not assured even by the strongest ta’veren presence, it’s also possible to be driven by something other than the Pattern, as both Lan and Moiraine recognize. Even before anyone has brought up the word ta’veren, Lan recognized the focus of the Pattern upon the three Emond’s Field boys. In Chapter 38 of The Eye of the World, when he and Perrin are talking about Elyas, Lan mentions the incredible chance that the two of them, both possessed of this strange ability, should meet. “The Pattern is forming a Great Web,” he tells Perrin, “what some call the Lace of Ages, and you lads are central to it. I don’t think there is much chance left in your lives, now.”
However, this does not necessarily mean that Perrin and the others are ta’veren, as Lan points out when he wonders whether they have been chosen for something, and if so, by the Light or by the Shadow. In fact, the Dark One’s ability to touch the Pattern comes up from time to time in all three books, as Moiraine continually wonders if the broken seals have allowed him enough freedom to do so, and tries to decide if the forces driving them along are those of the Dark or the Light. When she learns about the boys’ dreams of Ba’alzamon, in Chapter 42, she explains that it is impossible for the Dark One to select out an individual except by chance, or if that person seeks it. However, “… for a time, at least, [Perrin, Rand, and Mat] are central to the Pattern. A Web of Destiny is being woven, and every thread leads straight to you.”
This is how the Dark One is able to find them, and we later see that some humans also have the power to see the ability, as the Amyrlin does when she encounters Rand at Fal Dara in the beginning of The Great Hunt.
“… he blazed like the sun. I’ve seldom been afraid in my life, but the sight of him made me afraid right down to my toes. I wanted to cower, to howl. I could barely speak.”
That sounds pretty distracting! With Perrin, on the other hand, the ta’veren effects are a little less clear. As Lan posits, it may very well be something to do with being a wolfbrother—perhaps that old skill is meant to return to the world, and Perrin is meant to herald it or help it along. Or perhaps the wolves will have a crucial role in defeating the Darkness in the Last Battle. Perrin also has a lot of individual connections with people. His push and pull with the Tuatha’an has always felt to me like it is leading to something important, and he has now drawn Faile into his orbit, much in the same way Min and Elayne seem to have been drawn into Rand’s. Still, a lot of what it means for Perrin to be ta’veren remains less clear, and Moiraine is apparently not sure what to make of him or his various abilities.
But of the Two Rivers boys, I would have to say that Mat is the one who has become the most interesting, as far as ta’veren powers go, and he is the one who really sparked my interest to ask questions about ta’veren in this piece. His abilities have come on suddenly and strongly, and while Rand seems to affect people, their choices and desires, as well as the natural world (fires, etc.) Mat actually affects chance and probability itself.
And I have to say, that’s kind of genius. If you think about it, fate/destiny and chance/luck are basically opposites of each other. By being a focal point, like a lucky charm for the Pattern itself, Mat turns chance and luck into something more deliberate. He actually creates destiny. In this way, he is more the former of the two types of ta’veren Moiraine mentioned: He drives change by his choices, and at least appears to have a lot more freedom than Rand and Perrin in what he decides to choose. His luck may have led to him overhearing the plot to murder Elayne and the others, but he wasn’t compelled to do anything about it other than by his own heart. His choice to rescue Aludra appears to have been his own, for all it turned to a very fortuitous result, and there is nothing tying him to Thom the way that Perrin is tied to Faile—he just likes the old gleeman a lot. And that, I think, is very interesting.
Of course, Moiraine hasn’t interacted much at all with Mat since The Eye of the World, so she doesn’t know about any of this. However, I think comparing her situation to Mat’s actually has helped me define the difference between someone who is ta’veren and someone who is integral to the Pattern, but not quite in that way. Perhaps the Pattern did choose that Siuan and Moiraine would be the two to witness Gitara Moroso’s foretelling, but it doesn’t seem like anything but the women’s own beliefs and determination drove them to go down the path they chose. Moiraine believes in what she’s doing, with all her heart; for all Rand’s abilities, without her choices he would almost certainly never have lived to proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn.
And the same is true for Nynaeve and Egwene and Elayne, I think. They are clearly critical to the future of the Pattern, even if they are not ta’veren, and even putting aside the ways in which they might be important specifically because of their connections to Rand. Being ta’veren is not the only way to shape the future; I will be interested to see how the efforts of these Aes Sedai-to-be compare to the efforts of the three ta’veren boys, and if the ability to affect change, or a specific type of change, can belong only to one or the other. After all, there are limits placed on ta’veren, their choices can be more restricted, and thus the effects they leave behind them are more restricted too.
I want to take this moment to thank you all for joining me in Reading the Wheel of Time! The Dragon Reborn was a blast, and I’m really looking forward to tackling The Shadow Rising. What new baddie will rise up to take Ishamael’s place? How will Rand handle his new prestige and oncoming madness? And what are Lanfear’s true intentions? Tune in on August 20th to find out!
Sylas K Barrett is very much looking forward to continuing this journey into The Wheel of Time, and is still wondering if dragons are a mythical creature in that universe, or if they once existed, or if, perhaps, they still exist somewhere.
No, Moiraine explains that sometimes this happens, sometimes that. Not two different types, but two ways Ta’veren can manifest, from moment to moment.
Siuan is still operating on what AS know. Moiraine has had first hand experience with Ta’veren. One of the many things where AS don’t know shit. And most AS don’t believe that the DR should be gentled. Where did you get that from? The test for Accepted is formed out of the tested expectations, fears and hopes. It’s not said that there is any truth to them at all.
Even though Moiraine has experience with Ta’veren, she still hasn’t left her wrong knowledge behind., i.e. believing that Ta’veren let others influence events.
Yeah, Lan recognizes them as Ta’veren. There is no nebulous, wholly different mechanism. Just the mechanism that is mentioned all the time.
All Ta’veren effect probability. Or what do you call it when all the people in a village that might marry, marry on the same day?
Mat deciding to help Aludra is purely him, yes. But that Aludra chose that barn to seek shelter, after deciding to go in that direction, is a prime example of Ta’veren at work.
Ta’veren are the ones that are central to the pattern, the ones central to the pattern are Ta’veren. Again, no different things.
That you’re lapping up all the speculation and false conclusions isn’t really surprising, it takes a while to realize that people in Randland, and especially AS, don’t know shit, often don’t have enough knowledge to draw true conclusions, and don’t recognize that.
Really nice analysis, as always.
OP “What new baddie will rise up to take Ishamael’s place?” That would be “baddies.” The fun of Wheel of Time is that Rand, the other boys and other girls have to face a wide variety of evil and/or problematic adversaries that perpetually increase the degree of difficulty needed to save the world from the Dark One. Sylas is aware of the Forsaken Lanfear and Sammael, and knows that someone Forsakeny is essentially in charge in Andor. He knows there must be more Forsaken running loose in the world even if not named yet. There are also Liandrin and her team of 12 other Black Ajah, two of whom are in custody as of the end of TDR; other Darkfriends in seemingly every place Rand and company appear; troublesome Whitecloaks, one of whom (as yet unnamed if not unguessed) who is an out and out Darkfriend; strong willed Aes Sedai, some who want to direct Rand (such as Moiraine and Siuan) and some of whom might have other intentions (such as Elaida), And, as Sylas will learn, more to come.
I never understood whether being ta’veren caused or effected Mat’s ability. I tend to think that Mat’s luck is a Talent, like Perrin being a Wolfbrother. Certainly the dice tumbling around in Mat’s head has nothing to do with being ta’veren. If Mat’s twisting of chance is a Talent, was it supercharged by being ta’veren? Did it have any effect? Or is Mat’s luck ability solely due to being ta’veren? If that’s the case, what about the dice? It’s never really been made clear.
“Ta’veren,” Moiraine said, “or ‘Main Character’ in the Old Tongue.”
I’ve never been entirely sure what the root of Mat’s luck power is, just as its never entirely clear where Talents like the Wolfbrothers, Min, or Hurin spring from. But I’m pretty sure its not just that Mat is more purely weaponized ta’veren-ness than the others (though less powerful than Rand ofc).
Generally it seems to me that ta’veren-ness mostly manifests (aside from the freak accident stuff) as the preternatural ability to inspire trust and loyalty and bind people to them. Of course, we’re a couple books too early to really see the fullness of that.
@3 Someone once asked Brandon whether Mat would lose his luck when he eventually ceases to be ta’veren. His answer was as follows:
BRANDON SANDERSON
I don’t believe that he does. Being a ta’veren has a distinct effect on him, but I think there is an innate luckiness to Mat, partially drawn from the fact that the Heroes [of the Horn] call him Gambler. And so in other lives where he would not have been ta’veren he was still a gambler and still lucky. However, I do think being a ta’veren meant that the luck was greatly magnified, and I think it grew stronger and stronger through the series. That’s my read on it from the notes, and I’m pretty sure on that one. I have to give the caveat that there could be something out there that contradicts me.
@@.-@ Which is why I sometimes wonder if the TV show will identify Egwene as ta’veren. I know, I know, blasphemy. But Egwene’s storyline with the white tower presents a decent argument that she is also influencing the pattern around her. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jordan just hadn’t completely worked out the rules surrounding ta’veren and/or the scope of Egwene’s destiny this early in the series and then didn’t have a reason to name her as ta’veren later o. Of course the end of her story might have had to change if she was truly on the same level as the boys… (I stan Egwene forever obviously).
Ta’veren = deus ex machina to correct and/or restore the Pattern while keeping the Creator from being directly involved.
Something I just thought about: how the heck does Siuan know she has a Talent to see ta’veren?
@@.-@ lol yeah taveren just means RJ does whatever to create an elaborate set of circumstances used to enrich the world/plot and call it “the pattern”
@7 I honestly think it was a mistake to not make Egwene a taveren
@9 I’ve def had this thought before, like are taveren something Siuan comes across often enough to tell? I feel like in reality her realization she has this Talent would show itself the day she sees rand at fal dara and she gets confused AF and nearly passes out
@9 – it is a known trait in the White Tower. Several people have it, including Siuan but also Nicola and Logain. No doubt, like Nicola at the Little Tower, they saw one, they asked what they were seeing, and the talent was confirmed.
Of course Siuan and Moiraine were not the only people to learn of Gitara Moroso’s foretelling of the Dragon’s birth. But Sylas has not read New Spring yet so he doesn’t know how the Black Ajah found out.
@9:
I would presume based on all the knowledge people have regarding them, that ta’veren are rare, but not that rare. They exist, regularly, to correct the Pattern. Presumably she has seen one, or more, before.
Its the strength of the Emond’s Fielder’s ta’verenness (especially Rand), and the fact that three of them were in a single tiny village, that make them extraordinary, even for ta’veren. After all, we got all kinds of talk regarding Artur Hawkwing being the “most strongly ta’veren person since the Breaking,” etc (implying that there are enough ta’veren running around that you can gauge a difference in strength between them). Moiraine knows that you can track ta’veren by watching their effects on the pattern. That sort of knowledge required direct research at some point, and with more than one subject. The implication is that there may be multiple ta’veren running around in every generation… they just aren’t very strong.
@13 I wonder if Heroes of the Horn are usually ta’veren.
The Tree-killing king might have been ta’veren or one might have been involved in leading the Aiel into Randland. I bet there’s a Brown who spends her time hunting for ta’veren in historical records. Sure the big ones like Rand and Hawkwing are easy to spot but smaller ones are probably controversial. How much of history is it fair to attribute to ta’veren? Does that diminish people’s accomplishments?
As far as Siuan knowing the Talent she has, lesser ta’veren do actually seem to be a thing and it isn’t impossible that she would have run across them in the course of a life as Aes Sedai and then Amyrlin. Also, as something about which AS have extensive (if still potentially faulty) knowledge and study due to its obvious inherent importance to the world/Pattern, the Talent itself and how it manifests are likely described in the literature as well.
As for whether any of the girls are ta’veren, particularly Egwene… I go back and forth on it, but it really doesn’t seem like their plotlines depend nearly as much or as specifically on the kind of incongruous chances that the superboys do. Or in cases where there are particularly coincidental things, like say, running into Domon again in Tanchico, the interplay there seems to be less specifically something that they need to set their path or continue along it, and is arguably overshadowed by the fact that Domon needed to end up in Seanchan confidences in Ebou Dar for Mat’s sake. Or for Egwene’s and Elayne’s impact upon the world as rulers, they certainly do things and make decisions that have wide ramifications for a lot of people, but again, still seem to rely less on the wildly fortuitous and interwoven chance that draw the boys into and along in their particular leadership roles, and don’t have nearly the scale of unintended but crucial ripple effects to the wider narrative.
–Long-winded theory beyond this point–
For the nature of ta’veren itself… this is maybe getting a little too deep and woo-woo about it, but I’ve been casually theorizing that all of the various abilities/Talents, from channeling to ta’veren to Dreaming to Min’s doomsight, are all manifestations of connection to the Pattern that aren’t nearly as distinct as they come across. The fact that channeling is so intuitive, especially for those of greater strength, especially for the main characters, makes it almost like a form of particularly controllable ta’verenism… in a similar way that Mat and eventually Rand can, especially as they come into their own, deliberately alter chance and probability in a wild variety of ways that serve them without making use of the Power, a channeler creates localized areas where some wildly improbable things happen according to their will.
It’s super unlikely that if you make a throwing motion, for example, a ball of fire will emerge from your fingertips as if you had thrown it, or that someone attacking you would get caught by a super-dense bit of air, and in fact there are no real natural laws that would make it happen on its own… but if you’re connected enough to the Pattern you can make a little bit of the world act as if it was, in fact, natural enough to happen. Or the fact that the Ogier can through force of will and song turn an already-grown tree into one that, oh hey, actually grew into this exact specifically useful form. Just like TAR can access other worlds with other natural laws in an (almost?) entirely read-only way, just like Dreaming and Min’s abilities and Mat’s skull-dice let people see some forkings of chance which are inevitable and some which are indeterminate, channeling and ta’veren and treesinging all let you navigate them to various degrees of intention and spectacle.
And I think it’s telling that the three boys’ manifestations of ta’veren link so strongly to their innate personalities, worldviews, desires and anxieties. Mat, always seeking excitement and novelty and fun, with the focus toward chance and luck. Perrin with a focus toward personal and individual loyalty and deliberate choice to be caring and gentle in the face of his strength and destructive capacity: constantly gathering a growing band of followers who trust him before anyone else in the world, sometimes overwhelming very significant prior conditioning/loyalties, to lead them to what’s right. Rand being driven to a destiny that he doesn’t want and the deep fears about how he will destroy without meaning and his desire, even need, to save those who are beyond his power to save: lighting fires and inspiring weddings and saving children who fall out of windows. There’s something to the fact that the swirling of ta’veren happen in ways that the boys not only can often use to great advantage, but that align with how they do and want to move through the world to both push and aid them in the right directions. And in the moments when they know the result they need the most, when it is the correct move for the pattern, it almost always happens through the mechanism that they’ve learned best, e.g. Mat throws his dice and gets the roll he needs, Perrin convinces someone how genuinely trustworthy he is.
And then Rand lights a pipe just by thinking that he wants it to be lit.
I think (no sarcasm intended) that ta’veren is a brilliant concept on RJ’s part. It is a fact that EVERY fantasy story of significant length (I’m tempted to say any FICTION) depends on one (usually many) very unlikely events (e.g., chance meetings, last-second rescues, etc.). By invoking this as a fundamental principle of the Pattern, RJ escapes having to make ad hoc rationalizations each time. I DO wish he had included female characters – Egwene at the very least!
I’m pretty sure Mat’s luck is a result of the Shadar Logoth dagger and his Healing from the infection it caused.
@14:
I’ve always thought they must be, but others argue against.
@15:
I don’t think Egwene can be ta’veren. Even though RJ likely would have made her such of he were writing the story today. Nicola, Logain, and Siuan have all seen Egwene since she became Amyrlin. Siuan and Nicola all the time.
As far as lucky happenstance. In most circumstances, they are either around one of the boys, or Rand specifically needs them to accomplish what they do. His ta’verenness can cover any number of circumstances that may make Egwene appear to be ta’veren.
@17:
I’ve heard that theory as well, but I’ve never heard anyone explain what the causation is that they see in it. WHY would the dagger have made him lucky? Or, what combination of factors caused the Healing to make him lucky?
And how does that play into his role as a Hero of the Horn known as “the Gambler” to Artur Hawkwing?
I love how he has keyed in on Perrin and a possible tinker connection already.
This slow week by week review of his is really helping him to sense things.
@19 Yeah, that’s never tracked for me. Well before Shadar Logoth & the dagger Mat’s shouting ‘Carai an Caldazar’. Rand’s the Dragon and Perrin’s the wolfbrother, but the Old Blood was always strongest in Mat. The Pattern only needs the Dragon occasionally, and the wolf ties are also an old rare thing, but The Gambler? Of the three Mat’s is the archetype most often churned out I think.
From Robert Jordan’s blog:
Also, here’s this quote from Brandon:
@21 – RJ originally planned to have memories from the Old Blood, but later discarded that idea in favor of getting other men’s memories from the ‘Finn. That is the main reason for the disconnect between earlier books and book 4, such as Mat waking up from the healing in book 3 and having a distinct memory of another life.
The supergirls are indirect ta’veren because of their close association with the boys.
The secondary threads also bend other threads, but they don’t count as ta’veren, only the primary ones. The girls influence other people to help Rand. They don’t have their own independent purpose (although Eg probably would disagree that saving the Tower isn’t a primary goal).
@24:
That quote plays nicely with what I was trying to say @18. Where is that from?
@25, It’s in the original post – the first quote block.
Moderators: Grammar point: In “much change they can actually affect”, it should be “effect” (the classic example of “effect” as a verb).
Ironically, in two separate replies there’s an affect/effect mixup, once each way.
@27 – Corrected, thank you.
@17 – I may be wrong, but I always saw Mat’s acquisition of the dagger as the first manifestation of his luck. So often what seems to be bad luck for Mat, turns out to crucial later on. While I am not sure that the resolution of the Fain/Mashadar story is exactly what RJ had in mind, I would think it is somewhat similar at least, meaning that without Mat’s exposure to the dagger, there would have been no one to stand against the home brewed evil at the conclusion of the Last Battle. The whole episode also introduced us to the losing/gaining of memories theme that will be very important to Mat, and Rand for that matter.
Anyway, long time reader of these things, first time post. Thanks for lending me an ear, and just wanted to add how much I am enjoying seeing someone experience all this for the first time.
@17 @19 and others. Mat thinks about how his luck has never been this good on that first night in Tar Valon. He specifically states that he has always had good luck and would win more then lose when gambling with the merchant’s guards back in Emond’s Field. But this night is different and remains so for the rest of the books. After thinking it through, I always believed that after the Healing is when Mat’s Ta’veren nature really kicked in. He already had it to bring him to the Dagger (for reasons explained by others above) and blow the Horn, but after he was cured from the Shadar Logoth taint was when the pattern really needed him to do his thing and enhances his already lucky nature. He kicks ass from this point on. None of this is definite, but it makes the most since in my opinion.
From a writerly point of view, both Mat’s luck and ta’veren (and ‘Need’ to an extent) are kind of a nice, built in way for him to do what the plot demands – but yet it still fits in with the world.
I don’t have any profound things to say, but something about the way you write about ta’veren and being able to have a bit more influence on the Pattern is reminding me a bit of the difference between Men and Elves in Tolkien’s cosmology – where Men have a little more freedom within the ‘Song’. Although there still seems to be a lot less ‘control’ on the part of ta’veren – ultimately they’re still at the Pattern’s mercy.
@31: remember Matt’s healing is around the same time the Black Ajah group left the tower and some artifacts went missing, including one carved to resemble a pair of dice. There was no telling exactly what that artifact did. Matt only used other men’s dice that night and after so he could not be said to be using a weighted set. My belief is that this artifact ended up in Matt’s possession and he never realized it because he no longer used his own dice. I can’t recall it ever being mentioned again in connection to the 12.
Also, the dice in his head must have come from the ‘Finn as he didn’t start hearing that until he tries to leave Cairhien prior to the Shaido battle.
Lea @33: I don’t remember that item, and I looked at the passage in TDR and couldn’t find it. Is this what you were thinking of?
@33 I believe he hears the dice tumbling in this very book.
@@@@@ 23
Mat has both. It’s not a disconnect. He has a very strong case of the Old Blood, since he can speak the Old Tongue with the Aelfinn (and the Eelfinn) fluently, and without noticing it. That’s before the Eelfinn fill his head with memories of other people.
The holes in his memories happen either because of the Shadar Logoth taint on the dagger or as a side effect of the Healing from that illness.
So Mat is someone who had the Old Blood and memories/dreams of one previous life as a general of Manetheren. Then he picks a Shadar Logoth dagger, gets ill, gets healed and loses part of his memories. In a quest to fill his memories, he gets the memories of a thousand other people from the past.
In reading the interview database, even Brandon Sanderson doesn’t know where Mat’s luck comes from. His theory is that, since the Heroes said he was known as “the Gambler” in other lives, that Mat’s luck is a part of him, but that being ta’veren supercharged it.
Re: luck and the dagger – Mostly it’s that his luck powers first manifest when he leaves the Tower after being Healed. Prior to that we don’t see anything of the sort. Even his thoughts about his previous luck being good don’t really jive with what we know of the Two Rivers and the boys prior to their leaving Emond’s Field. He talks about gambling with merchants’ guards, but the Two Rivers never saw a merchant wealthy enough to travel with guards. They had Padan Fain the peddler. The arrival of a gleeman was practically unheard of. And what the hell was he gambling with, acorns? The coin Moiraine gave him was more money than he’d ever seen before.
Trying to figure out a specific mechanism for any of this stuff is dangerous with the early book inconsistencies, but my best guess is that the Shadar Logoth taint and subsequent Healing interacted somehow with Mat’s ta’veren nature to create his luck. Both are just ways of bending the Pattern, Mat’s luck is just a more directed version of it.
Really though I suspect Jordan just wanted Mat to be lucky because of the Odin connection.
I’m also not sure that Mat is actually a Hero. Doesn’t Hawkwing tell him that it’s possible he could be added to their ranks? He’s called “Gambler” once or twice, but I don’t recall any implication of that being a title akin to Dragon within the story.
I always took Egwene’s gift to be something different than ta’veren. She (and Tuon) had the ability to resist the pull of ta’veren. It never seemed to me that she needed to be ta’veren to make her equal.
The merchants who buy wool and tobacco in the Two Rivers have guards. We don’t see them because it’s the wrong season. Mat gambled with one of those guards and lost.
There had to be more merchants than Padan Fain. Enough for Perrin’s Axe to have been made for a guard that ended up not taking it and for the Two Rivers to be know throughout Rand Land as the best Tabac even if they didn’t know much about the outside world. It really doesn’t make sense for the Two Rivers to be as isolated as it feels at the beginning and I wonder how much the Pattern had to conspire to keep it that way.
@34 bad_platypus
Yes! That’s the item! I simply can’t recall it ever being mentioned again at any point after that passage. Of course not all terangreal require channeling to show an effect. It’s of course possible that channeling may enhance it but it may not actually need it to be effective. I would still say that Mat’s ta’veren skill is luck and that luck brought him this piece to enhance it. But that is just my theory.
I look at the dice as similar to the ring that let’s not dreamers enter the dream world. It’s a way to mimic a talent that some people have. I wouldn’t be surprised if you could theoretically make a ter’angreal to mimic various other talents that not one power users have (Perrin, Min, Hurin, etc)
@42 – So your theory is that Mat somehow, someway, unknowingly acquired a set of ter’angreal dice, that could only be activated by channeling, and somehow kept it on his person for the entirety of the series, without it ever being mentioned once?
one, the 12 black ajah left before Mat even got to Tar Valon to be healed, remember, they arrived, Suian told the supergirls about the 12, and she wants them hunted, then they healed mat. 2. Mat getting the dice is highly unlikely, since the only ter’angreal that the black ajah fled Tear was two of the dream te’angreal that the two they captured had. (and the destroyed hedgehog one that trapped Faile, but the supergirls never mention that again.) and Mat never sees the 12 ever again for the rest of the series.
@13 Anthony Pero
Yeah, but there’s another side to that – minor ta’veren whose purpose is to make small corrections to the pattern will only be ta’veren for a brief time. By the time you march minor ta’veren #86 down to Tar Valon so all the novices can take a look at him and see if they’ve got the talent, he won’t be ta’veren anymore. Also, by their very nature, ta’veren will resist being trundled off at the whim of an Aes Sedai, because they have a purpose in the pattern, and that purpose will not be accomplished if they go off to become the subject of an experiment.
I’d just write it off as Authorial Necessity. He’s got to introduce the concept of ta’veren. He’s got to confirm that all three boys are ta’veren. So they find themselves surrounded by people who can identify ta’veren, and who know that they can identify ta’veren, regardless of logistical difficulties. Loial identifies them, Moiraine identifies them, and even Logain, looking up from his cage. Mostly because the author needs certain characters – and the readers – to know about ta’veren.
@46 And “How do they know?” is left vague enough that one can fanwank all sorts of conjectures about the origin of the knowledge.
For instance, I could see Aes Sedai getting shanghaied by minor ta’veren once or twice a decade because they can arrange things in a way the regular authorities can’t. AS themselves might even become ta’veren with a higher frequency than non-channellers.
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@42
I wonder if it may have been present when they healed Mat. Possibly in posession of an Aes Sedai in the room while Mat was being healed and it enhanced his luck talent. Since they healing required a LOT of channeling, it could’ve accidentally triggered the ter’angreal and added to Mat’s already present ability.
Also, curious if his memories of gambling were from a previous life and he never fully recognized it because of how much seems merged after the healing. The near-death encounter allowing him to slowly get closer to the wheel and open up his mind to previous lives before snapping him back into the pattern.
@49 Don’t see how, seeing that the black ajah stole them before mat even got to the tower. and even if they were, they would have noticed, as the aes sedai do notie when there’s a strange fluncation of the Power coming from any kind of tean’angreal. I think the dice were just introduced to show that the idea of luck manuplation was possible, and that it wasn’t a Chekov’s gun, seeing that they never show up ever again.
@38:
I think Hawkwing was talking to Hurin, not Mat.
@37:
Jordan chose names like Artur Paendrag to connect the Heroes of the Horn to our own myths and legendary characters. Mat being named the Gambler does the same thing. Namely, it implies that Matrim Cauthon is the reincarnation of Kenny Rogers.
Mat never did know when to walk away or when to run though.
@52:
Or, you know, Odin.
@53:
As far as I know, he didn’t count his money while sitting at the table, so there’s that.
@53 I’m pretty sure he knew when he should walk away or when to run, he was just spectacularly bad at it.
Trying to run away from battle is how Mat started leading his own army.
The way I look at it there’s three major mechanisms by which ta’verenness operates:
1. Chance specifically and identifiably favours them. This is most spectacularly seen in Mat’s gambling luck, but there’s also stuff like Perrin turning at *just* the right angle for a coat button to deflect an arrow, or various times someone stumbles and a sword misses, or when Mat cold-cocks the High Lord sneaking up behind him in the Stone, etc.
2. Apparent coincidences shift other people’s actions so they are where the ta’veren needs them to be to achieve the ta’veren’s purpose. Bayle Domon’s rescue of Rand and Mat, for example, which then echoes throughout the series. Verin describes it as being herded. A lot of the ta’veren stuff Rand does in books 1-3 is of this category; when people encounter him, their lives are reshaped to the pattern’s mould. Gawyn describes this effect, imperfectly but clearly, to Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve.
3. Directly forcing the desired outcome of, e.g., a negotiation. This happens a few times; the two most obvious examples are both with the Sea Folk, once with Rand and once with Mat, but there’s also Mat and Perrin’s feeling tied to Rand at various points.
@56, Mat kept telling himself to run away but by warning the soldiers he’d taken responsibility for them and he couldn’t leave good men to die.
@49,50 Let me start by saying that I do not believe the below explanation. I do not believe there is a full explanation of Mat’s luck. But your comment made me think of a really cool way that this could have been woven into the story seamlessly. Recall that Sheriam was present for the healing – though I don’t believe she took part directly. The dice ter’angreal never shows back up with the mobile group of Black Ajah. Therefore, a single alteration to the series would have completely explained Mat’s luck al la your previous supposition that he was influenced by the dice during the healing. What if Sheriam revealed (sometime during the siege for instance) that she had been left with the dice all along. A few more hints dropped along the way about how ter’angreal can affect nearby channeling and bang a fully encapsulated and complete explanation for Mat’s luck powers with only a single extra line in the series – a line, I might add, that changes nothing. It is already completely within the realm of possibility already that Sheriam has the dice, how would we know?
@59 I like that theory a lot, actually. The fact that it’s on the list doesn’t even mean that the thirteen stole it. Just that it showed up as missing in the audit after they ran off. And it’s exactly the sort of thing that Sheriam, who joined the Black explicitly to get ahead in Tower politics without any expectation that she’d be involving herself in the end of the world, would have long since sneaked out of the storerooms for her own petty benefit.
I still also think that it’s a confluence of things, including Mat’s ta’veren nature and his character archetype/reincarnation, that gives him such remarkable and controllable luck. Main character syndrome or whatever. But those dice… there’s a certain symmetry to there being some sort of resonance between Mat, the ring of dice and maybe the dagger in the same way that the arches resonated with Egwene and the dream ring.
Mat’s luck has nothing to do with the Shadar Logoth Dagger. If anything he was unlucky by taking the dagger which almost killed him. As for the dagger, there is no evidence of any powers other than the taint of “SL” and “Mashadar.” Plus the instant rotting death if cut by the blade. The only luck from the healing is that the taint from the dagger is like a virus and Mat became the only person immune to that taint. “Spoiler” Which made him the only one able to defeat Mordeth, Ordieth, or Padan Fain. Proof that even Mat’s bad luck can be good in the weavings of the pattern. A theory, I guess.
@61 Mat was lucky he took the dagger because it was necessary for him to be exposed to it in order to beat Ordieth who he had to protect Rand from at the final battle the same way Perrin had to defeat Cyndane. (IMO the reason they both had to be there at the end as rand was in no position to fight off either at the end). Now some might say would Ordieth even be a threat if Mat hadn’t taken the dagger, to which I say, Ordieth had to escape because he had to stab Rand because Rand had to have the two wounds on his side of different competing darkness because that is what gave him the method of how to cleanse the taint and destroy Shadar Logoth which both needed to be accomplished.
Just randomly posting since we don’t have an article yet…we have our Rand, my friends. =) Josha Stradowski (who!?) I’m psyched.
Here’s some pics of the casting:
Rand (Josha Stradowski)
Perrin (Marcus Rutherford)
Nynaeve (Zoë Robins)
Mat (Barney Harris)
Egwene (Madeleine Madden)
So, Mat appears to be the odd one in that bunch. He doesn’t match the other Emond’s fielders, who are either New Zealanders, or in Perrin’s cased, somewhat dark skinned.
@65 – He matches Rand. All the others are dark skinned, not just Perrin.
Article:
https://www.tor.com/2019/08/14/wheel-of-time-casting-announcement/
I think many of the commentors have the three Boys Ta’veren nature’s all wrong. Rand’s is the Arthurian type, ” One with the Land and the Land one with him”. Mat’s is pure Luck. All other abilities are as a result of that luck. Perrins is much more narrow than the rest. More like Hawking’s wherein things just fall exactly as they need to. Or more his is a need thing, with regards to conflict. He was literally forced into a roll of leadership. And it is important to note that Perrin never really acknowledges his Ta’veren nature, so he is moved by the pattern more freely and thus acts more freely within the bounds of his particular brand of Ta’veren. He doesn’t acknowledge it and so is the most free.
Also, remember that Mat and Perrin would likely never have become Ta’veren if not for Rand’s presence. As well having so many female channelers being found in the same area as well, including 2 of the most powerful the White Tower had seen in ages. It was noted many times. All of this likely a direct causation of Rand growing up in close proximity. Meaning, Rand was so strongly Ta’veren that he was likely Ta’veren at birth. Which, as has been explained, is a unusual and looooong time to be Ta’veren.
Other interesting notes are how Rand and Mat consciously tried to manipulate their Ta’veren nature’s effects. Mat probably understood his better than the other three. Rand, however, truly and actively used his as a weapon. The most stunning of which is when Rand visited the White Tower with Egwene as Amyrlin. Others are when he first comes down off of the Dragonmount, when he confronts Darkfriends, when he nearly dominates Tuon, or when he threatened Cadsuane.
As for when Mat became Ta’veren? Probably long before he left the Two Rivers. I’m pretty sure I remember Moraine suspecting all three were Ta’veren even in the first book or maybe it was the second.
Someone noted that Rand needed Mat to acquire the dagger in order to not die from the tainted wound and lend some of the information needed to cleanse Saidin. But Mat also needed the dagger to become the Son of Battles. The fact that he was strong in the old blood helped how that manifested during the healing which was already manifest before he acquired the dagger, meaning he was already showing signs of being Ta’veren, but was just overshadowed by Rand’s strength. Perrin being a Wolfbrother was no coincidence either, something that was likely born into him, lending to the theory that Rand’s possibly being born Ta’veren had a direct influence on what the other two would become.
Rand is literally the prophecied Chosen One, so that’s maybe a step above just ta’veren considering that the web was pretty convoluted just to bring about his wild-ass birth.
Mat is the Gambler.
Perrin is the Bannerman. Only Perrin could really have brought the Whitecloaks around to the Dragon’s side of the fight, really. Or the wolves.
Plus a zillion other archetypes each. It’s all good fun.
Love all the casting, the actors so far seem fantastic. Looking forward to seeing some borderlanders soon.
@66:
That’s my point. He shouldn’t match Rand. He should match the other three.
@69 “Only Perrin could really have brought the Whitecloaks around to the Dragon’s side of the fight, really. Or the wolves.”
I am waiting for Sylas’s reaction to “They have caged Shadowkiller.” Gives me chills every time.
We come.
@70 Mat is generally described as paler than most of his companions, along with Rand, I think. And Rand is the only one in the bunch really cast as obviously “white.” The rest are a somewhat diverse spread of what I might call post-colonial British that honestly makes sense to me for Andoran commoners culturally/geographically and per the character descriptions.
@73
When was Mat described as being paler except when he was sick? I dont remember. Provide a passage or something. Two Rivers folk in Jordans mind were probably sort of common white mid to southern european folk. Not pale but not black or arabian. Not blonde and blue eyed not giant norseman or fey irish just your normal everyday brown eyes… ho hum… brown hair… ho hum… folk. I think this was intentional they were meant to be sort of an afterthought until Manetheren and the old blood began manifesting itself again. As discussed above probably because of Rand.
@16 Faculty guy
Those are my thoughts. Fiction -and fantasy, especially- relies on coincidences that require a considerable suspension of disbelief. The concept of ta’veren explains these away quite nicely.
It also helps to place some characters where the plot requires them. Left to his own devices, Perrin would be quite happy to pursue a career as a village blacksmith; similarly, Mat would happily to spend most of his days in the pub. Neither of them would choose to be involved in deciding the fate of the world.
By contrast, Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne all have an adventurous streak, which means they are always likely to be at the centre of events…except, the Salidar Aes Sedai choosing a teenager as Amyrlin Seat always seemed so improbable that Egwene as ta’veren is the only plausible explanation I can see.
I think we can relate this idea of a Taveren even in our Real Life World.
For example, super influential people in our World especially in the World of Entertainment where it works on affecting people or Audience for Popularity… These stars come from not well-defined channels but from almost nowhere based on talent and by being at right places at right times.
Based on India, I can say that I feel Shah Rukh Khan, Amitabh Bachchan, Sachin Tendulkar, etc… Are Taveren… I was a 90s Kid from India.
Plus, it ties into The Nature of Taveren being Temporary. This influence, this peak of their rise in Popularity is for some time though they try to cash in and coast and scale up based on their Taveren time.
For, Mr. Bachhan it was those 7 to 8 years in Mid 70s to Early 80s that created his Angry Young Man Persona and that didn’t require more films… Just one or two films followed by similar other roles in close time period that embedded his image in Audience of that era for a Long time.
Shah Rukh today has a career spanning 30 years and more, but his popularity rests on shoulders of 9 to 10 good films from the Filmography of 100.
Even in lives of almost all of us, a Time comes where we can observe the Story of Life itself supporting us to reach Fulfillment of our Dreams.
But, one must account this other statement too that Wheel balances it all and strives towards Balance. It may be tilted to one side more for a time period, it may wobble, but it seeks out balance.
Wonderful Essay !!